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Transit Tangents
The Podcast where we discuss all things transit. Join us as we dive into transit systems across the US, bring you interviews with experts and advocates, and engage in some fun and exciting challenges along the way.
Transit Tangents
DART Membership up for Election?
A celebratory Silver Line opening collides with city referendums to leave DART, putting service, funding, and future upgrades at risk. We weigh the politics and the human impact, and lay out what residents can do before the 2026 votes.
• Silver Line ridership settling into expectations
• What Plano currently receives from DART
• Land use gaps around stations and jobs
• Why sales tax capture is driving exit talk
• Debt payoff timelines if cities leave
• System impacts of losing Plano and Irving
• Public sentiment and organizing momentum
• Negotiation paths and funding flexibility
• How to track councils and get involved
• Key dates leading to May 2026 votes
Recently, I had the immense honor and pleasure of being invited up to Dallas to join in for this momentous occasion, which was the grand opening of the Dart Silver Line, which is Dart's new service from DFW Airport all the way to Plano. This was such an exciting event to be at, and we all left Dallas in these really high spirits. But it was maybe 30 minutes later, I was starting to get text messages of news articles that were coming out showing that suddenly, even though we just opened this brand new beautiful train line, that cities along this route were suddenly talking about leaving Dart. So today we are going to talk about that latest push of cities that are discussing how they could leave Dart. We're going to talk about what that looks like, how that could actually happen. And we're going to be joined today by Tyler Wright from Data, uh, who you would probably recognize. He's been on the show several times before. And if this is something that sounds familiar, like we've done this episode before, it's because we've done this episode before. We have talked about cities leaving dark a couple of times. Uh so we're going to get into it.
SPEAKER_03:This has been an absolute roller coaster of uh will we fund, will we not fund, will we vote yes, will we not vote yes. Um and for those of you who are new to So Data is the Dallas Area Transit Alliance. Tyler is the vice president of the organization. So, Tyler, thanks so much for taking the time to join us today. Oh, it's my pleasure.
SPEAKER_02:I'm always happy to chat with you guys. Uh, we just wish we could chat about something other than leaving transit systems someday.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, one day we're gonna have a conversation that's like, oh my god, we solved the problem, and all the cities are happy with Dart.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. One day, you know, maybe I hope I live to see that day. Um, but we'll uh yeah, we'll keep pushing until then. Um but yeah, happy to be here as always.
SPEAKER_01:Uh before we jump into it, uh, you know, I started this talking about the Dart Silver Line. Can you give us any sort of update? How do you think the Dart Silver Line is performing so far? How do you think people are uh are reacting to it since the grand opening back in, what was it, the end of October of this year? Yeah, that was that was right at the end.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's been good. That first two-week uh period had pretty high ridership where it was free, and now I think it's settling into the expectations they laid out, so it's meeting expectations, which you know I think before all the TODs are done and all of the programming is kind of set up, it's doing about as well as it can. Um I, you know, I've been out of town for a couple weeks, so I haven't ridden it lately, but you know, every time I have it's been smooth, quiet, and more times than not I have a run into somebody I know either on the train or uh on the platform, uh including one of my uh uh compatriots on Addison Planning and Zoning. Him and his wife were just riding it to test it out one day. And I was like, oh hey guys, you know, and so we sat down and had a had a good conversation for the remainder of the ride, and then other days I've come out and they said, Hey, I just got back uh from this restaurant that you've been talking about for weeks, Tyler, and it's so easy to visit it now that we have the silver line. So I think there's a lot of potential there. The the train is very comfortable and new and and and just pleasant to ride. And so I think if we can you know get the density and retail housing businesses kind of built up along it, it will it will keep going well. Um and so far, I'm happy, a lot of data is really excited. Um, so we'd really love to keep it.
SPEAKER_01:So that's awesome. So we are gonna see a lot of investment, a lot of um changes happening on along the silver line. I know there'll there will be more housing, there will be more retail eventually. So these are investments into the communities that it's passing through, which leads me to this latest push. I would say uh arguably one of the cities getting the most improvement or the most investment in this is Plano because now they have a direct line to DFW. And so uh I should pretend shocked, I guess I'm not, that they were also the first city to announce that uh they were going to hold a vote uh among the citizens of the city to decide if they were going to to leave to leave Dart. Can you kind of give us a background of um this roller coaster that we continue to be on uh as far as funding, sort of where we were before this and and where we are now?
SPEAKER_02:Right. I think you you kind of commented on it. Uh you guys have made this episode before. Um so so this is definitely, you know, last year we were talking about the legislature kind of coming up that, you know, thankfully wrapped without issue, you know, earlier this summer. And Plano's still fighting that same battle. It's just that now, due to the state statute that was created, uh, when Dart was ratified or voted for, however you want to do it, they have an opportunity every six years um to call a referendum on polling out. 2026 is that year. They are using that right. Um, you know, ostensibly to negotiate a better deal for Plano. You hear a lot of people talk about how, well, we Plano's probably is the second largest economy in the Dart system. Um it is still fairly distantly behind Dallas. I don't want anybody to get that wrong. Um, but it is it is it is strong, you know, it's a it's a it's a powerful city in its own right. So they're seeing all that sales tax revenue um going to nowhere when the voters ratified it again, you know. Um and it's not even collected by the city, it's collected by the state and dispersed to Dart. That's another thing to remember. They're seeing that sales tax and thinking, well, we could plug some holes in our budget um with that. Uh maybe not even just holes, it's economic development, right? So cities just to the north of Plano, going into Collin County, like Frisco, another big up-and-comer, all these cities that are just exploding, uh, can use their uh economic that extra sales tax for economic development, bribing corporations to come in. And so there's a concern, and I don't know how well founded that is because I'm not in commercial real estate, but there is a concern that all those jobs are being pushed north. Um and they want to be able to use that money, but they're constrained they are quote unquote constrained by Dart. Um so that's where it's coming. And you know, Plano last year, the year before, passed a$700 million bond package. I think about half to two-thirds of that was road construction and maintenance, right? So they're in Texas. Sprawling exactly. They're a big, sprawling, relatively low density city for its size, and they're just, you know, they're looking for money. That's that's my assumption. So they try to get it at the state legislature, now they're trying to get it to pull out of Dart, except if you pull out of Dart this way, it takes eight years to pay off that debt, so nobody's taxes are going down for a long time.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and it it it all just feels so ridiculous too because, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but they'll also use the guise of like, well, we're not we're not getting enough out of Dart for what we put into it. Meanwhile, you know, this has been the largest investment in like the to the Dart system in a long time, and it it goes right to Plano. And I mean, Plano is one of the cities that benefits the most from the Silver Line, and I mean this is just the beginning of the Silver Line as well. I mean, in the future, you know, you could see frequencies increase as the TOD begins to develop, um, which will then continue to have net benefits for Plano. And I mean, even when you bring up the business elements of this, they're worried about businesses and jobs. Like basically, in any example that's been looked at ever, anytime you increase you know transit accessibility and build do more, you know, uh uh increase access to transit in these areas, you will see an increase in business, an increase in foot traffic, which will again continue to benefit Plano. Uh I mean you would especially think a direct connection to an airport for big corporations would be a major selling point, not going even further away from you know the hub that is Dallas. Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, a couple more thoughts on that. You know, Plano now has five rail stations that are served by three lines, um, an express bus, um, a couple of cross-town routes, and a few fairly high ridership regional routes. So they're they're getting a lot. Uh they've got the microtransit Go Link zones where you can, you know, get that last mile service as well. Um and you know, they're I guess there's a couple ways we can go about this, right? They're not getting enough out of Dart. I don't think Dart is getting enough out of them, because if you look at the land use around a lot of their bus stop stations and in major business centers. Like, for example, um I commute to a neighborhood called Legacy West. That's what that's their big flashy new development. Tons of businesses, housing, retail have been built along that corridor in the DNT um, you know, over the past 10, 15 years. The bus station is like a mile and a half from it. So if I want to go to my job that's in that area, I have to go to the you know, the southern terminus of the bus, and then take another means. I've tried to bike before, uh, but they don't even have complete sidewalk coverage or bike lanes, you know. So um they say they're not getting enough out of Dart. They're not they're not meeting Dart where they're at in a lot of ways. Um and if you look at the Silver Line, it's at the southern end of downtown Plano in a neighborhood called the Douglas Community, a kind of historically black um and underserved community, um where you know I think I think the Douglas community uh people who are there are really passionate about the train and they're really excited for you know opportunities for development. I just haven't seen Plano give a lot to downtown. Um because it's it's more of an organic kind of growth that that uh you know you can appreciate. I like visiting downtown Plano, it's really nice because there's variety of businesses, shops, and stuff, and it's the the rail for both the Silver Line and the Light Rail are right there. Um and their terminus stations tend to do very well in Plano, they have some of the highest ridership. So you'd think build some retail, build some stuff around it, capture that sales tax when people are leaving and exiting the Dart system, but I don't know. I I only work in planning and zoning.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. We're gonna jump right back into this episode in just a second. But first, if you have not liked this video, go ahead and do so. Also leave a comment. We love reading all of them and respond to as many as we can. Uh, and be sure that you are subscribed so that you catch every episode as they come out.
SPEAKER_01:Please share this with your friends. And if you don't have time to watch YouTube videos in the future, you can catch us on any of the podcast platforms that are out there. Uh, just be sure to leave us a rating and uh give us a comment. Uh and it's funny with Plano too. We've been there, we've been to the downtown station when we did our episode about uh how to do Dallas in a day using only public transit. And Plano's historically a rail town. I mean, it's built around a railroad. And so to ignore that legacy uh is is also very frustrating. Um but it's not I know we're picking on on that on Plano a lot, but it's not just Plano, there are other cities that have announced um Highland Park and Farmers Branch were two of the first uh to decide they were gonna put this up as a referendum um following uh Addison, but I think there's been some backtracking with some of the cities.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I can I can comment on that. So um so the four cities that have successfully called are Plano, Highland Park, Farmers Branch, and Irving. Um I believe Highland Park, Plano, and Irving were unanimous, whereas Farmers Branch was split 3-2 across the council. So, you know, there's definitely some dissent there, and at Plano doesn't, you know, over a hundred speakers came, and ninety ninety-eight percent of those were anti-pull-out, right? So there's not a lot of consensus at the citizen level about really wanting this. Um and you know, I think that finally started to really show in the Addison one. So that occurred while I was out of town, unfortunately, because I was, you know, dying to be there. Um but it was it was called f like five days after Thanksgiving, um, which was um so that's not on staff's fault. That's three city council members can call a special meeting. Um I know them. Uh I don't like that they did that right after Thanksgiving. But um data got a few hundred letters sent out to those council members, you know, in that time, um between people who live, work, or or you know, have a economic stake in Addison. And then, you know, I was working with some of my colleagues at old city council members, etc., in Addison, who who came out in force. Even the old uh city manager who built Addison Circle came out and said, you know, don't do this right now. So you have a lot of public sentiment against this from regular people, you know, the city, city planning veterans, uh very influential people in the town. And I think it I think it uh struck through uh for a lot of the council in Addison. And uh, you know, they realized, hey, even if we have problems with Dart, doing it doing this the way we are is wrong. We need to collect public input, we need to understand the needs. And I appreciate the four members that voted to to to count that uh to strike that down. And we have a couple of clips from uh the mayor of Addison on our on our LinkedIn and socials and stuff, and you know, he had some really powerful words about the human element. So it was really good to see that recognized by a council um and have those words out there because it's all about the money with these people, and you know it's unfortunate. And if we think like an accountant for everything it's gonna be it's gonna be trouble. So I I appreciate the acknowledgement that there's just a need for public transit. Um and that Dart is providing it and we need to figure out how to do it better.
SPEAKER_03:Question for you on the kind of next steps here. So uh I know the you know, a year ago when we were talking about this, it was uh a situation where the all of the member cities essentially needed to vote on this, and it had to cross a certain threshold before this you know would potentially become an issue. Like if it just one wanted to leave on their own, it wouldn't necessarily be enough for them to be able to you know adjust their funding levels and whatnot. Uh now this time around, you know, is is this something that an individual member city can kind of adjust their their own value, you know, kind of going into the system, or is it you know kind of uh everybody's gonna be paying the same, but you need a certain threshold to cross um before any changes would be made? Uh could you define what you mean by changes, like changes in the case? Like uh like the either lowering the sales tax uh contribution into Dart um to to or to be able to you know okay, yeah. Lowering the sales tax contribution.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, okay. Yeah, so this particular thing can't directly affect that, right? So if if cities were to leave, everyone else would still be paying the penny, those who stayed, right? Okay, gotcha. So an individual city could uh decide to leave on their own. They they could, yeah, absolutely. Um in in this case. And then if they did, they would keep they the penny would stay relegated to Dart to pay off their debt that's attributed from their time in the system. Um you know, so some cities like smaller cities like Addison, less than half a decade, but larger cities like Plano push eight, ten, twelve years of just debt payoff. Just debt payoff. Um and then after that you'd have to hold another election to see if you want to use that extra one cent sales tax for anything. Um because by default it would just go back down to 7.25.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks for clearing that up. I was just I I feel like uh I know that there had been a couple different, you know, we were trying to change the sales tax before it was like member cities all voting on it and it would change collectively across all of them. I wasn't sure how it worked on potentially backing out.
SPEAKER_02:You you could argue this is kind of a wedge to to build's consent for it in the legislature. Um, you know, it said, oh hey, all these cities left, maybe maybe if we lower the tax rate we can keep it. Um and the state statute does allow for collection between 0.5 and 1, you know, of the penny. So I'm not sure if it's any, you know, if it's a continuous range or just 0.5, 0.7, 501. Um but there is flexibility in in the legislation uh that as it exists, but y you can't run Dart that's th survived off the penny for forty-five forty-two years and just switch it overnight, right? There has to be a a glide path to maintain service that I don't think the cities recognize.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that was gonna be my question was what does Dart look like without Plano? Or what does it look like without Plano and the other cities altogether? Um that would create a major disruption and impact to the rest of the system.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um I think it's it kind of varies, you know, geo geographically, right? So if a city were to leave Dart, basically immediately the services stop. Um I think there is an option to turn over some of the land that Dart owns at a park and ride or something like that back to the city. I'm not exactly sure how that works. Uh, but Dart would still own the right-of-way, you know, kind of like the immediate station platforms, that sort of thing. Um so it kind of varies. You know, Highland Park is kind of a small city surrounded by Dallas, and it has, I think, one bus route and a Goling zone. Losing that for Dart would not be bad. Obviously, for the people it would be um a a major issue in in connections and transportation, but the buses can go through Highland Park on their way back, you know, between Dallas or something like that. Um Farmers Branch, based on their contribution to sales tax spend, it's about even based on that EY report. Uh so again, a major loss for the people affected by it. Financially, Dart would survive that. Plano and Irving is a little tougher, because those are two, you know, two and three respectively, uh, economic size, a lot of dependent riders. Geographically, Plano wouldn't be too bad because it's a term in a city anyways. You know, so this the trains aren't having to go any extra to serve a city beyond it. Um so you might recoup some operations, but who nobody really knows what that looks like. But that loss of sales tax would would um I think long term, especially with adding service, new capital investments would be greatly affected by their by their loss in and again goes without saying it's I think unacceptable to consider that for the people who defend on the system. Um so financially it would be tough, especially if Irving and Plano left.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm curious what happens to the silver line, for instance. You know, you you make this huge investment and now suddenly the the people that you made the investment for don't want it or pull out of it or don't fund it anymore. What happens to the green line? What happens to all the those dollars spent.
SPEAKER_02:Well, fortunately, I'd hope they'd still be paying off that debt from the investment for a little while, but yeah, it would it would definitely put in jeopardy upgrades to frequency, hardware, infill stations, what have you. It would be an issue.
SPEAKER_03:Uh I mean otherwise just uh, you know, it sounds like actual people are not as convinced as a handful of politicians who are making quite a bit of noise about this. So uh I'm curious as we kind of wrap this up, what your thoughts are on the momentum. I know you all had data of, you know, it's uh correct me if I'm wrong here, it's uh almost two years old now, data as an organization.
SPEAKER_02:We're uh I think well over a year and a half. Um next summer will be two years.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and I mean I give you all a lot of credit for basically starting, you know, just from a loose group of folks to now, you know, earlier in this episode, even you just said, oh yeah, we quickly got together a couple hundred letters of support to specific, you know, members and whatnot. I know we saw you guys right after they were uh right after your day kind of lobbying when you were in Austin. Um so it's been really impressive to see what you all have been able to kind of uh build up to be able to kind of get get people actually in motion to go out and speak up about these things. So um where do you see the momentum going on these sorts of things? Uh d Is there a chance to salvage this still, or is it looking more so on the negative side, like, you know, um a little bit more unclear what what's going to happen moving forward?
SPEAKER_02:I think um it it's kind of city by city. I will say there is momentum. You know, we're doing our best to kind of keep people informed. Uh we're working on a coalition of kind of like-minded groups. Um, you know, I think uh the branding, the tentative branding is you know, vote yes for Dart because the referendum will say yes, stay on Dart or no, leave it kind of thing. Um so you know, we're trying to unify that branding and messaging. Data will be a key part of that in um, you know, providing information, policy analysis, uh kind of you know, toolkits for people who want to start their own groups to kind of get going. We already see two in Plano. Uh there's one called Keep Dart and Plano, and then the Transit Alliance of Plano. So these guys popped up. I think Keep Dart and Plano got a C4 before Data did. They they moved quick. Um so um, yeah, people are unhappy. Um there was also another unofficial poll, or no, an official poll by some respected pollster that's uh showed in Farmers Branch in most of the cities. A fairly strong majority of people want to stay in Dart and don't see the point in removing it. Um we haven't really seen um like in previous pollout years where elections have started, there have been like groups with stickers and brands and names that were all about pulling out of Dart, um especially in Irving. We haven't seen those yet, but there's still time for them to pop up. Um there's certainly a lot of money behind this, right? You know, I know via transportation, the people that uh run the transportation Arlington and other cities, I believe they have a C4 that's kind of used to uh 501 C4 for everyone to uh kind of influence policy, and they're definitely a candidate vendor for replacement services if they were to leave, you know, if cities were to leave Dart. So there's there's larger financial interests at play here and the the yeah, you know, the kind of stubbornness is the word of the councils that exist. So what data's hoping to do is provide that information, kick start the groups, uh we need to do some work in Irving and Farmers Branch over the next couple months to kind of get people, but we're already in talks. Um this Dart pollout election always also coincides with a lot of seats in the city councils being flippable. Um so this is this is great to kind of piggyback on that and say, hey, this guy likes Dart. You should vote yes to stay in Dart and vote for this person for city council so we don't have to do this mess again. Um and you know, data is just gonna stay focused on the ridership, you know. The official standpoint is we're not we don't want to lose any service. We want these cities to stay the one cent we're kind of whatever about as long as service stays the same. So if there's other funding mechanisms that are proposed or limited mobility programs that rebate some back, but don't but don't dismantle the system, you know, we're open to that. Um because a lot of people will say you guys are just paid smokesmen for Dart, which means that that's that's how I know we're dangerous, is because we're being accused of it. So in a way, it's a comment. Um, you know, we're we're we're we're happy to be seen as Dart.
SPEAKER_03:Chris and I get checks from different transit agencies like one of the things that we're gonna do. Oh, you all do? Oh, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Every time we mention a transit agency, you know. That's smart, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So so if I just say Dart five times, we'll we'll get some SEO and some checks. Well, very cool. Um let me know how I can get on that. Uh yes. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, uh so you know, we're gonna play that information game, show up to city councils, um, support those candidates, uh, make sure everybody knows what's going on, how the riders are gonna be affected. Uh we hope Dart will continue to negotiate. There are some things they can certainly improve on, and like I said, that funding thing, we that's fungible. We can work on ways to do it as long as it maintains a bridge. And fortunately, the North Central Texas Council of Governments has an entire report on how they could continue to fund transit and find a way to balance those you know economic needs of the individual cities. I don't know how many of the I read it on the plane and train when I was out of town. Um I don't know how many people who actually make decisions have read it. Um so um we joke that some of these councils are just don't know how to read. Um so you know the the the the ideas are there, the potential for cooperation is there. Uh we just need to strike this down, get some of these get some of these anti-DART members out of the city council and and kind of renew the conversation. Those are our goals over the next six months.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I'm I'm glad you mentioned the next six months because it looks like if everything goes as scheduled, the elections for Plano, Highland Park, Farmers Branch, and Irving are going to be on May 2nd of 2026. Um so that sounds like a little ways away, but it's gonna come up very, very quickly. Very fast. If there are folks in the DFW area, especially m people who are part of these cities who are really want to be part of this fight to save Dart, where would you direct them to go?
SPEAKER_02:Um, yeah, I think for now, as of time of this recording, you know, uh ridewithdata.org or Dallas Area Transit Alliance.org, follow our socials. We kind of have the most um reason to be kind of up to date on this. Um other groups like the Dallas Urbanists, which just got their nonprofit status, um, are making some very high quality videos about this. Um that's probably the best way to stay informed. I would say in your local area, you should start reading your council agendas to see what people are doing and saying. If there's any town halls coming up, any sort of election stuff as people are registering, you can start to get in touch with these people. Um, you know, I I got started in city governance by just writing an email to the candidates. Um and I was fortunate to get responses really quickly. And I think um you know, some of the more hard-line city council members were not flipping, so we're just gonna get them out. But there's a lot of people that are open to the conversation that are just uninformed. And unfortunately the voters will have to inform the city council members, which uh is backwards. But um uh but there I think there are some people, especially in Farmers Branch, where the the margin was pretty thin, it was only three two votes. So you flip one or two people and we're back in Dart, right? So And it's also important to say you can they can call off the election I think sixty days before the the referendum date. So if the negotiations go well or public pressure gets big enough, they can say, okay, yeah, we're done, we're gonna stay in Dart, sorry about that. Right. Um I've heard musings from people I know in the town of in the in various towns that say some of the negotiations are actually going okay between Dart and all that closed door stuff, Dart and the city. So we might see something new come out after the new year. Um and so stay with Dallas Area Transit Alliance, Dallas Urbanists, local city councils first, um, and then as we get that vote yes for Dart movement out, we'll probably have that will be a bit more blankets, um, directly um focused on this for all of the cities.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome. Well, definitely keep us updated as that information starts to come out. We'll also make sure links for your organization as well as all the others mentioned below uh are are included down below. Um thank you again so much for giving us another update here. I'm sure we'll be talking again uh uh on this. Uh hopefully it will be really positive news that a bunch of the elections got canceled and the maybe one snuck through uh and had their election, but uh yes, one. So uh hopefully we'll have that news to be able to update everyone with in a couple months.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we'll we'll invite you guys to the after election party. Uh yes. Or give me a yeah, give me a call on May 3rd next year, and hopefully I'll be in a good mood. Yeah. But um, yeah. No, thanks for having me. I'm happy to talk about this, and I appreciate y'all letting us uh kind of have a voice here.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome. Well, uh with all that being said, if you enjoyed this episode, please go ahead and give it a thumbs up or leave us a comment down below. It helps us out quite a bit. If you have questions for Tyler or Chris or I on this, definitely reach out. We'd love to hear them. Uh, if you want to support the show directly, the best way to do so is via our Patreon or checking out the merch store down below. But with all of that being said, thank you all so much for watching and enjoy the rest of your transit and Tuesday's day.