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Transit Tangents
The Podcast where we discuss all things transit. Join us as we dive into transit systems across the US, bring you interviews with experts and advocates, and engage in some fun and exciting challenges along the way.
Transit Tangents
Housing - The Secret Ingredient for Transit
Unlock the secrets of urban transformation with Cutter Gonzalez, a communication strategist from the Welcoming Neighbors Network. Discover the intricate dance between housing policies and public transit systems as we dissect the "housing theory of everything," showcasing how cities like Austin are setting the stage for reduced rents and denser living environments in anticipation of projects like Project Connect. We'll explore the symbiotic exchange of urban strategies between Austin and Boston, emphasizing a shift towards integrated planning that creates communities where culture, accessibility, and innovation thrive.
Doors are closing. Public transit, that's my way to roll On. A metro, I'm taking control. My stops, train tracks it's my daily grind. Public transit, it's the rhythm of my life.
Speaker 2:On this episode of Transit Tangents, we discuss what our guest calls the housing theory of everything. Why is housing policy so important when it comes to public transit? Find out today on Transit Tangents. Hey everybody and welcome to this episode of Transit Tangents. My name is Lewis, I'm Chris, and today we are joined by special guest and personal friend, cutter Gonzalez. Cutter is the communication strategist from the Welcoming Neighbors Network. They are a network of housing advocacy groups across the country, and Cutter also runs the Austin Urban Reads Book Club. He's a co-host of it, of which I'm a member, and you have helped me read many more books this year than I would have otherwise.
Speaker 2:So thank you for taking the time to chat with us today. Yeah, so happy to be here.
Speaker 3:Big fan of the podcast, obviously.
Speaker 2:Thank you being an.
Speaker 3:Austinite and transit nerd, so Absolutely On the show.
Speaker 2:In the past we've talked about housing here and there, but we haven't gone deep on it really. And we did an interview about a month or so ago now with Bill McCamley, who was the executive director of Transit Forward, and in that interview he said something funny that I thought stood out to me, and it was Well, I'll be honest with you.
Speaker 4:When I got this job more than two years ago, I thought I'd be the cheerleader for buses and trains and such, and I've done more housing work because those topics are so damn interrelated.
Speaker 2:And I thought that was really interesting and really kind of ties together the importance of these issues and it's also something that we've noticed too.
Speaker 4:Like we've been having these conversations with different people. He's not the first person to say this. We've actually done a previous episode where he talked a little bit about some zoning policy changes and that sort of thing and how it relates to transit. So, yeah, definitely interlinked conversations.
Speaker 2:Totally. But I'm curious from your perspective, kind of a broad sense here of like why are these two issues so tied together and why is the importance of them being tied together so important?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we jokingly call this the housing theory of everything, that like, somehow everything links back to housing, whether it's transport, whether it's, you know, community cohesion, culture, arts, everything comes back to housing in some sense.
Speaker 3:And I mean transport, if we think of it in very broad terms, it's just a way of getting from one point to another. Right, and the thing, the points are those places that are meaningful to us, and the most meaningful place to most of us is home. Right, in the sense of mass transit, like like what we with Cap Metro, trains, buses, all the things that Bill thought he'd be working on and I love Bill and that so sounds like him it's impossible to do those things well without a certain amount of housing in a certain defined amount of space, and so you can't have a good, fast, reliable transit network when people are living 30 miles apart, at least in the traditional sense, you could have some kind of rapid network, but not in the sense that people want to use on a day-to-day to get from the grocery store to home, or there's kids to school or whatever else. Housing allows all that to happen, and housing is the reason those things even come into being.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, and we definitely see that happening quite a bit in real time here in Austin, where it's hard to drive, walk, bike, take a bus anywhere without seeing new housing being built here, which is a great thing, and I mean, when you look at it, Austin is one of the only cities in the country right now where we have rents going down. Yeah, thank God.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, as a renter in Austin. Yes, the same.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I mean even in a place we're sitting right now, I mean like this is one that's a little bit older, but like in areas where future plans in Austin are to build more transit, you're seeing a lot of that development already happen before the transit is even built, specifically talking about Project Connect. But you know, recently we saw members of Austin City Council actually get invited to fly across the country to Boston Austin to Boston, yes, which is a flight I'm really familiar with. I've got a lot of family over there and famously one time I booked them in reverse Can't believe I'm sharing that publicly, but that was not fun but Austin City Council members were invited out to Boston to kind of give some advice to the Boston City Council, who are trying to deal with a lot of the same issues that we've had here. In your opinion, you know what is Austin doing right at this point?
Speaker 3:Oh, there's a lot of things, and I will say actually so in my role at Welcoming Neighbors Network. Aura, here in Austin, is one of our members and Abundant Housing Massachusetts, which is based in Boston, has chapters throughout Massachusetts, is one of our members. So there was a lot of like chatter about this Austin Boston thing. I'm waiting till we spell it like B-A-U-S-T-A-N. Boston, and I love both cities. They're great.
Speaker 3:There are so many things I think in general right now just getting comfortable with the idea that we and proudly proclaiming we, are a city. That sounds so basic. But I want to start there because I think it really matters. We're sitting here on the east side, which has its own complicated history with development, and I am immensely sensitive to that, just knowing the history of the place, and I got priced out of Austin first years ago, so I understand the displacement concerns deeply and it's important to state that at the outset. But what we've done here right around where we're sitting is we've gone to almost like Paris-level densities as a default, where it's like six stories or so. I think we're four to six around here, and accepted that this is what a city is supposed to look like, that whole single-family myth of the 40s 50s, which Austin is the only thing allowed here until very recently is fading away. Instead, you have what Austin is, what Austin is as a city, how cities function, and we've leaned into that idea that it requires a certain mass of people to be together and the way we do that matters. So it's not.
Speaker 3:Uh, the word density is scary for a lot of reasons. One, it's bad. You can have dense suburbs Like you. Look at those big garden style apartments or whatever euphemism they use for it, where it's like a sea of parking in the middle, surrounded by seven story towers and nobody's really benefiting from that. Quote density, but um, density in any sense requires a lot of connection, a lot of points to get between and points that have to be efficiently got between, which means not taking a private, private car everywhere. Your mobile living room does not need to come with you to the grocery store, right and um. For austin, it's been this kind of rethinking and it's really, I feel like I. I first lived here in 2018, I guess. Right out of college I got a job working downtown. Um, I could not afford to live within the kind of freeway.
Speaker 4:Yes, rectangle, the square of Austin Right.
Speaker 3:I was living on the southeast side off Parker Lane, which was actually a really great place to live. I was right off the 7 for Cap Metro. I took that to work every day. It took like 20, 25 minutes, which is super better than what I have now living off South Congress, and I realized at that point that Austin couldn't be a home for me because I didn't want to make places for people like me at that time in 2018. And then the prices went up. The rent where I was at, which is an old, old apartment, is now like $1,500. I was paying $1,100 right out of college, making $42,500. That was horrible. And then I came back.
Speaker 3:After I did school, I went to grad school, got all that done, got a good job with the Welcoming Neighbors Network and then loved Austin. So I came back and when I came back it felt like a different place. It was like there was an energy around. I think the freeway fight bringing a lot of people, a lot of diverse voices into this movement, aura really getting a lot of folks into city council and planning commission that understand the issue, and there was this momentum to not just build but take seriously the things that have held us back from building. You know the issues of displacement here on the east side, the issues of how we've done transit all those things seem to be like feverishly moving when I came back in 2023, I guess it was.
Speaker 3:But yeah, and so I think Austin's ability to re-envision itself in the ilk of a city of a million people which it is, that's no small number, you know to recognize the problems that face masses of that size and to be bold in how we do this, to not allow the status quo to keep dominating and fear of what could be to keep dominating that's huge and it sounds so nebulous and abstract, but really that's like the paradigm shift that had to happen to allow us to get things like the home initiative this year, where we're allowing more units on lots and allowing ADUs, accessory dwelling units citywide. That all had to come after, you know, and then I think that had to reach a fever pitch, unfortunately with the price to where a lot of us got priced out. But now we're in a different era, I mean, I think after this election cycle, especially in the runoffs that happened, I guess, two days ago yeah, I mean, we have a what 10 to 1 pro housing council now and a diversity of flavors of that pro housing from different vantage points. But that's very different from back when I lived here.
Speaker 3:Last time Like drastically.
Speaker 4:So no, I'd love to hear that too. I mean, I moved here in 2012 and I say often, if I had moved here today under the same circumstances, there's no way I would be able to afford living in the city. I moved into Southeast or Southwest Austin, southeast Austin sorry, off of East William Cannon. Uh, at that time I had I mentioned this before on the show but I had an 1100 square foot apartment and I paid 450 a month my roommate and I both paid 450, and so you know 900 a month uh and I my first real job in austin.
Speaker 4:I made 11 25 an hour and I was very excited about that right, yeah um, but if I had moved here under those same circumstances, there's very few options options for somebody that would have been in my position, so I'm happy to see that. And as you're saying it is. I think it's hard for people to understand the shift in the city of Austin and how it has grown so quickly, because you know it's you. It's hard to admit that your community's changed no-transcript in the way of any change.
Speaker 3:Good, bad ugly, you know, and a lot of it to me seems rooted in this kind of nostalgic reading of the past. Right, and I did do a little bit of emotions research I was in grad school, so forgive me for a second but the way nostalgia works, from what I was reading, it effectively reinterprets memory. The way memory works is it erases a lot of the bad, clears it, it out, makes narrative sense so that we can go about our daily, daily lives, stop being burdened by what has been imagine what can be and be unburdened by what has been you know.
Speaker 2:But that almost sounded like the kamala harris unburdened.
Speaker 3:That's why I was like I'm still feeling that burden for another four years, um, at least. But yeah, I think nostalgia then works on this memory that's been stitched together from parts psychologically and this is a healthy thing that we all do and then reinterprets the past as something rosy, beneficial, good, and that makes total sense, right? I think when we do that at community scale, we risk not seeing the negative there. We risk not seeing who was priced out, who's no longer here, how this thing like the 70s, for example, I mean, if we're talking about that era of Austin which is always always the pinnacle of Austin that you hear about?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and luckily now I think the myth people are kind of making fun of that, saying well, the best day in Austin was the day that you moved here, that era of the kind of the mythical Austin, when you had leading into, like the Ann Richards era, armadillo World Headquarters, all the stuff that we love to celebrate. Still, there was a lot of bad shit. There was a lot of stuff that was not good. I mean, where we're sitting on the east side is a prime example.
Speaker 3:We're sitting where they decided well, you don't want people of color to be over with us in the beautiful hills, or really even downtown, kick them over there and, in fact, build a freeway to separate them right, we don't want to talk about that with the the, you know mid-century, mid-late 20th century, but that's a real history and that history is something I think if we ignore and we try to celebrate and imagine, past will forever hold us back. We'll never get the housing we need because it's never gonna be the 70s thank god's never going to be the 70s. Thank God it's never going to be the 70s again in Austin. I recognize that I'm a recent addition to Austin, but my family's been in this area since the Republic of Texas, so I feel a little bit better about like, yeah, thank God it's not the 70s in Austin anymore.
Speaker 3:You have a stronger Texan claim than I do, and that's my favorite thing is like when's your family get here? Yeah, I'm a woke live. My family's been here 200 years, you know. But that that vision had to crack Right and and it really really did, I think because people were bemoaning the loss of musical culture and stuff, which I live off South Congress. I'm here to tell you, if you want live music, go anywhere any night of the week. Yeah, you can still find it. Uh, it's just that you're probably living in cedar park now, um, but that that really had to come to a head, and and all of that myth of what we were losing, combined with the rising price points, it started to, you know, congeal in this, oh shit, not developing, has led us to do the thing we were afraid of doing which is get all that out totally and that's like really come to a head you lightly mentioned.
Speaker 2:like the, we just had a couple of big city council elections. The mayor was up for reelection and yeah, as if you're just listening, the Cap Metro red line train is passing us. If you're watching, I think you can probably see it.
Speaker 3:but I'm such a kid.
Speaker 4:when the train goes, I'm like, yeah, look at it, my favorite part about sitting at Cosmic Saltillo is sitting on the little balcony and looking down at the train that cosmic is that's very good for sure you can sit up there and just see like, wow, what the city could be yeah yeah, but uh yeah we.
Speaker 2:we just had the city council elections, the mayor's election and in every case, except for one city council race, um the the more pro-housing yimby kind of council members and mayor won pretty overwhelmingly. I mean, in the runoff situation it was much closer, but like if you were to look at the votes, that's how runoffs go Exactly.
Speaker 2:Kind of an overwhelming pro-housing voice. So yeah, I mean, but these sorts of voices, I mean, there were folks on the other side of that running in these races in many cases and they were overwhelmingly defeated, which I think is a good sign here. There's more I want to get to, but I also want to. We've mentioned the Welcoming Neighbors Network a little bit Sure yeah.
Speaker 2:We haven't mentioned this yet also, but Cutter with, welcoming Neighbors Network actually has a podcast as well. Can you talk about kind of some of the work Welcoming Neighbors Network does as well as your podcast and where folks can find that?
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, welcoming Neighbors Network is a national coalition of pro-housing groups.
Speaker 3:I mentioned Aura here and Abundant Housing Massachusetts up in Boston and broader Massachusetts and we have groups kind of all over the place and really we're just like a resource sharing kind of hub.
Speaker 3:We help folks, you know, learn the best of the best from each other primarily, and then we have a very lean coordinating team which I'm on, and we help folks then, you know, figure out how to run a policy campaign, cause I mean most places you have like a rag tag group of folks who care about making a better place to live and they don't know how to organize that into a winning policy campaign. When they're facing a city hall, like in Austin, where you've got a million people trying to influence what's going on here, how are you and your 15 friends gonna figure out even how to even connect to others? So we do a lot of knowledge sharing, resource sharing. As part of that, I do host the podcast. It's called the stoop. It's on wherever you get podcasts and you can go to welcomingneighborsus and, I think, scroll to the bottom and it's down there too Awesome.
Speaker 2:We'll make sure there's links to the larger podcast platforms as well in the description, wherever you're watching.
Speaker 4:We're going to remix that podcast. Wow, all right New outro music.
Speaker 2:So we've talked a lot about Austin, a city that, like has, you know, made a lot of progress in terms of these kind of new housing initiatives, whether it be through the.
Speaker 2:You know made a lot of progress in terms of these kind of new housing initiatives, whether it be through the, you know, parking minimums, the home initiatives, all this sort of stuff, and if you're interested in those sorts of things, we'll put links to, like, more descriptions if you're really interested in this sort of thing, so you can kind of go follow up more on it. But where do you think a good place to start is for a city that you know hasn't taken these steps yet? Right, they haven't kind of done what you said earlier on in this of like really like realizing, hey, this is a city, if we're going to be able to bring costs down and act like a city, we need to start to think about, you know, densification, where it makes sense, and you know how that interlaces with transit and all this sort of stuff. Where do you think a good place to start is? And that can be from experience seeing it in other cities or, you know, I don't know yeah, when is the place to go?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's always hyperlocal, I think, because it varies, but there are some like some trends. I guess One of the things I've seen that's really palatable as a kind of get your foot in the door, make meaningful change without creating mandates or inducing a ton of neighborhood change which is always the biggest fear when you first take on something in housing is parking minimums. So a lot of most places require even New York City requires, which is insane, but it requires a minimum amount of parking based on you know how many people are expected to use your business. Sometimes that's a proxy by square footage or whatever, and the problem with that, of course, is that the geometry of it is every parking space that you take up could be a home or part of a home. They're huge and by mandating minimums you get an excess of parking.
Speaker 3:I mean, there's billions of parking spaces in the United States, for example, and there's only 350 mil of us. So we have a lot, and one of the things you can do, this very low barrier, is get rid of the minimums. So in places that are more walkable, that have more transit, then a builder can say I actually don't need three parking spots for this single family home. I can choose to have one or none, depending on what it is um, or or this town home. People are not having cars, we don't, we don't need to do it, so that's. That's the kind of thing that's very low entry, uh, or low barrier to entry to, to do um, a lot of stuff like we've done in austin. I mean, again, our movement is making big noise but it is relatively new. Like the big wins are new. So like accessory dwelling units is another thing that I think a lot of places tackle early on, hopefully statewide. We'll tackle that in the next legislative session.
Speaker 4:For people who don't really know what that means. That could be above a garage apartment. It could be a carriage house, another smaller house behind yours that shares your lot, that sort of thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, they're kind of like small interventions that don't usually upset the original footprint of the house too much, but add another home or two to a lot. You see actually a lot of them in Houston. I lived in Montrose when I was in grad school and then you see them a lot here in Austin now too, and you almost don't notice them, which is I almost wish they were a little more noticeable. People would be like wait, it's working, you know, but you really don't. You don't see them much. So the neighborhood kind of feels the same at a walking pace or biking and driving.
Speaker 3:Certainly those kinds of things are like the two biggest I've seen right off the bat. But I will say it depends on your local context. There's so much that you can do and the best way always is to inform it, with you and your neighbors deciding together not to listen to some national model. I say that as someone working for a national coalition with shared resources and that kind of stuff. But what we never try to do, just rooted in our theory of change, is say like this is the 12 steps to build more housing.
Speaker 2:There's no playbook.
Speaker 3:It's like here's the evidence of what's worked and where it kind of works. But what do you and your neighbors want to do? Right Results may vary. Results may vary, and vary they do, I mean so like if you some places have been less I mean Texas actually is kind of one of them I think we haven't taken a really aggressive statewide housing agenda, and state is arguably the proper venue for this kind of stuff, because land use is not a local system. It relates to everything else in the state.
Speaker 3:Well, and we're limited federally too, what we can really do on housing policy in a lot of ways, Right right, yeah, I mean, and transit transportation is hamstrung at every step of the way on that kind of thing, as we know painfully here in Austin. But that to say like with you and your neighbors, like you can take bigger risks than just ADUs or just parking or whatever.
Speaker 2:I just mentioned those because they're, like, off the bat, what people have usually started with. Yeah, I just think, in general too, it's important. Like you know, change is difficult, as we've said, but, like right, depending on your area, it doesn't have to be difficult.
Speaker 2:And like there are interesting things we're seeing across the country and areas that At one point we're just like endless suburban sprawl, developed in a way that's really hard to serve by transit, and then you start to see nodes of hey, maybe we can do something different. Where you start to see transit oriented development happening, where you start to see these sort of sorts of things and like good examples that we see here and in other places across the country right now are like old, abandoned strip malls, like they're you know their original purpose is not being served as well. They're noticing how empty the parking lots are, with the advent of just ordering anything online and having it delivered to your house in the same freaking day, all this sort of stuff. What's your parking lot phrase? Yeah, where I see surface parking lots or no? Where you see surface parking lots, I see potential.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:You turn those into really nice mixed use developments, things that can kind of look like the area we're in right now. And all of a sudden you have this hub where you've got all sorts of people living. You can have restaurants and bars and bookshops and coffee shops, a school all this stuff in this one area. And when you have all those people living in that one area, all of a sudden you can have transit that goes from that area and connects to the rest of the community. Community. You can set aside a section of it for really nice parkland and all of a sudden it becomes a really nice community hub, which once was an empty parking lot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that visioning is the like critical first step. Like don't go in just like we're gonna fix housing right as in like you've got. Go in and just be like we're going to fix housing Right, as in like you've got white papers and you're like here's the research. No, have like an idea, like something you can point to that's tangible. Every even the most suburban person out there I'm sorry you're out there, but like come to the city, it's good here, or move further out.
Speaker 3:Pretty, I hate the suburbs. I'm sorry I shouldn't say that, but this is me being a bad comm strategist. And the reason is I grew up in the suburbs, basically, and there's just a lot of like it's liminal at the end of the day, because all the parts that make communities great are not functional at that scale. Like they can function at smaller and larger scales in different ways, but they can't function at that scale. And so what you have to do is say, like you moved to the suburbs because you were expecting community and you were sold a bill of goods, right, you were expecting to know your neighbors, to have intimate relationships with your friends, to have coffee shops and bookshops and all these things that made your small town great. I mean, I did half my growing up in New Braunfels and they have failed to increase density like whatsoever. So it's become this sprawling hundred thousand person mess. Traffic's worse than it is here half the time and they're like bemoaning all the loss of local businesses. But nobody lives near these businesses. They can not survive. And big box stores they can do it. There's an economy of scale there. That means that when you just sprawl and sprawl and sprawl and you do the suburban thing, you lose what made your community great. And by having four-story buildings nearby you actually get to save a lot of those.
Speaker 3:Austin we have indie bookstores everywhere, which I love. I went down to San Antonio yesterday and there's a couple and they're struggling Again. Know again very sprawly place. Houston you have some in the inner city like that inner ring or in 610. But then once you get out there it's all Targets and Walmarts and yada, yada, yada and that's not an accident.
Speaker 3:So you have to have that vision for what that community looks like and you present that vision collectively and you figure out how to make that happen. So for some people that was eliminating parking mandates, for some people that was ADUs, for some people that's allowing duplexes and fourplexes by right. You know, we all have that vision. We all watch the like Hallmark movies where we pretend that that form is actually that walkable, you know, and we have friends like sitcoms, like Friends and Sex and the City and those kind of things where, like you're seeing loving people enjoying urban space.
Speaker 3:And that's what we have to do is we have to lead with that vision, because that's what empowers all the stuff and that's why I think, with Austin, we've done so well is we were like we kind of get a sense of what we lost and what we want to gain. And you get places like this where we've done really well to rebuild something that is enjoyable, pleasant. I mean, we're sitting out here in Austin, it's winter and it's 80 degrees, but you know, yeah, yeah, yeah it's actually really great.
Speaker 4:That's more concerning that it's December and it's 80 degrees, but yeah, it'll be increasingly concerning, but winter's gonna be lovely, right.
Speaker 2:Forever. Yeah, you know, summer, you know Up for debate.
Speaker 3:Debate we have burton springs um, which is how I survived the summer. But I will say I bike every. I don't have a car and I, uh, I bike every summer.
Speaker 2:It's not that bad on a bike yeah, especially on an e-bike in the summer. It's e-bike, yeah, yeah, yeah, regular bike is sweaty, even though you live in austin.
Speaker 3:The thing that got me to keep listening to podcasts was the e-bike, the cult of the e-bike. I was like okay.
Speaker 2:That was a very, a very early episode and and actually that's kind of how I met you Cutter was through Kelsey. We're talking about Kelsey. That was kind of our first episode. That got more than like a hundred views too, which was fun. That was like oh, what's going on Makes sense if it's Kelsey. People like e-bikes.
Speaker 3:I love Kelsey and Kelsey, kelsey used to host the book club with me.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I think that's kind of how we met, basically yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:But we used to see Kelsey If we had a word cloud for every episode of Transit Tangents.
Speaker 3:I think Kelsey would be like huge, Especially the first half.
Speaker 2:She was named Ralph all the time, but I think in general, though, that gives a pretty good, and if you want to add anything else here, to feel free.
Speaker 4:No, I think that's. I think that's a pretty good sort of summary of the conversation and things that are happening no-transcript would say get to know your neighbors.
Speaker 3:Um, a lot of people would lead with, like go to a city council meeting, don't do that. I mean do eventually, but like don't start with that. You're going to be bored, it's going to be miserable, you're going to be like what the hell's going on? Uh, that was the censored version of that sentence, like it it's not productive you sit there and wait for 13 hours for your time to speak.
Speaker 3:Right, right yeah, I leave around hour eight, I'm like they're gonna do what they're gonna do. Uh, no, but um, but get to know your neighbors. And that could be old-fashioned like knock on a door, depending on how you know what the area is like, and say like, hey, I noticed that this bike lane is shit out here. What do you think? Right, you know, or something? Or just commiserate over whatever is happening. Every neighborhood has its ales. You know like, oh, there's that pothole over there at my parents neighborhood, or there's that bike lane that is annoying somebody else, or whatever it is like. Talk about it, uh, genuinely listen, and then use, not use, but have that relationship as an opening to make change. That's better for everyone, better for your whole community. That's the real place to start.
Speaker 3:I think All the groups that I have the privilege of working with are kind of ragtag groups. Actually, I think the most recent episode of the Stew podcast I talked to someone from Anchorage and they eliminated parking mandates unanimously in Anchorage, alaska, wow, and it started with a meeting in a parking lot. Literally, I think it was like 11 or 12 friends or something got together in a parking lot, but it's that kind of thing. That's where you start and then if you need resources, I mean they can reach out to whoever. I'm here too.
Speaker 2:I do this work. We'll make sure ways to get in touch with Cutter are available in the description and everything. And yeah, I mean I think that's a really it's been a topic we've been like kind of sort of talking about on the edges, but we were like we should spend an episode talking about it and there'll be more coming and throughout the episode here too, you might've seen, we were in Dallas a couple of weeks ago, if you were watching, and there we visited a couple weeks ago, if you were watching, and we visited a couple what your Come and Take it shirt.
Speaker 4:Oh yes, oh yeah. Yeah, we visited a couple of transit-oriented developments.
Speaker 2:As another train goes by, we visited a couple other transit-oriented developments going on in Dallas and our friends our new friends from Ride With Data hooked us up with some t-shirts. And we'll actually be back in Dallas next year February 1st and we'll actually be co-hosting an event with Data there. Information on that is in the description if you're in the Dallas area. But thank you all so much for watching this episode of Transit Tangents. If you haven't left a comment already or liked this video, please consider doing so. It helps out quite a bit. Also, consider rating us on your favorite podcast platforms and if you want to help support us directly, the best way to do so is via our Patreon. You get early access to episodes like this one, bonus content, all sorts of stuff, and you get some transit tangent stickers mailed to you directly from me. So, with all that being said, thank you all so much for watching and enjoy the rest of your Transit.
Speaker 4:Tangents Tuesday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm saving that dough. Public transit's where we're sat. Watch me go.
Speaker 3:P-P-Podcast.